IRC logs for #openrisc Tuesday, 2015-10-27

--- Log opened Tue Oct 27 00:00:43 2015
olofkpoke53281: Time to rewrite jor1k :)
robtaylorjust seen how cheap the lattice pcie card is
robtaylorwould there be any sensible approach to talking pcie with the yosys toolchain?12:11
LoneTechyeah, "cheap" with a limited-time offer to try the tools. last I checked it was about $10k/y if you wanted to keep using it.12:11
robtaylorhence the question ;)12:11
wallentoI would assume you need some soft IP for PCIE12:11
robtaylormm, looks like i'd have to purchase Lattices :(12:17
ysionneauolofk: omfg....12:18
olofkrobtaylor: I think that might be the card that maxpaln used to implemented his OpenRISC SoC13:13
olofkrobtaylor: yosys is only for the iCE40 chips. Not ecp513:14
olofkWell, actually yosys is the synthesis part, so what I just said is wrong13:15
olofkBut we only have P&R for iCE4013:15
wallentois there any estimate of complexity of ecp5 to ice40?13:16
olofkLattice got iCE40 when they bought Silicon Blue a few years ago, so they are totally different products13:17
wallentoin months of reverse engineering?13:17
wallentoah, okay13:17
olofkecp5 is more like virtex/stratix13:17
wallentoyeah, so I assume it gets ugly in the bitstream with clocks, I/O, etc.13:18
olofkBut aren't thre any open source pcie cores?13:18
olofkyeah. That must be nearly impossible without real specs13:18
wallentoRIFFA is a pcie core13:19
wallentoI don't remember what layers it covers13:19
wallentoah, it is not pcie but only the communication13:20
wallentochannels to fifos13:20
wallentoit needs xilinx IP clocks13:21
olofkYep. Saw that too just now13:21
wallentobut they are free with vivado IIRC13:21
olofkBut that won't help for lattice devices13:21
wallentojust for abstraction13:22
robtaylorolofk: ah, thats good info, thanks14:16
robtaylorysionneau: nice!14:28
ysionneaudoesn't support lattice/altera though14:30
ysionneaubut I guess you can fund _florent_ for doing it :)14:30
robtaylorthat reminds me question, what are people's thoughs on migen?14:30
ysionneauI've been using it for more than 1 year now14:30
ysionneauand it's great!14:30
ysionneauI don't want to touch verilog anymore14:31
robtaylorseems similar to the chisel approach14:31
ysionneauI guess14:31
robtaylorie. you get a buncgh of primitives for building up hardware designs as a data structure14:31
robtayloroh, maybe i'm misunderstanding - it isn't event driven?!14:32
ysionneauyou just describe your synchronous/combinatorial design using python syntax/constructs14:33
ysionneauand you have Python syntaxic sugar + object oriented stuff as a bonus14:34
robtaylorhow does it stack up against myhdl?14:34
ysionneauit's really different from myhdl from what I understood14:34
ysionneaubut I can't say much I never used it14:35
ysionneaualso you have to take into account the existing ecosystem : is there lots of useful cores in myhdl? chisel?14:37
ysionneauwith migen you have already an entire SoC + lots of modules (FIFOs, wishbone bus, bus width converter etc)14:37
ysionneauDDR controllers, uart, spi flash controller14:37
ysionneaupcie, ethernet, usb14:38
robtaylorthere's a fair bit in myhdl, also you can wrap verilog cores in both14:38
robtaylorbut pcie and ethernet are quite cool14:38
robtayloris there a community?14:39
ysionneauM-Labs -> #m-labs14:39
robtaylorhmm, that's a company14:39
ysionneauit started off as the Milkymist community, and it got incorporated14:39
robtaylorthats kinda a bad mark if it's an 'open product' model14:39
ysionneaubut the corporation existence does not change anything about the community, does it?14:40
ysionneaumaking a corp does not change gold into shit instantaneously :p14:40
ysionneauanyway, m-labs is the channel where anyone interested in Migen/MiSoC can discuss14:41
ysionneauregardless of any commercial stuff14:41
ysionneauand btw, the pcie ethernet and usb cores are also made by a company ... -> enjoy-digital14:41
ysionneauthe fact that several companies use Migen also proves it's usable :)14:42
robtaylorysionneau: companies involved is good. project controlled by one company bad14:51
robtaylormarginally concerning if the comminuty channel is also the company channel, as a businessman myself14:51
robtaylorshows a lack of thought of govornance14:52
ysionneauwhat issue do you see with the company channel being the same as the community one?14:52
robtaylorysionneau: it shows a lack of thought of govornance14:53
ysionneauI see more a concern about being totally open14:53
robtaylorit says 'this projet is this company's' and puts me off as a company14:53
robtaylorwhich is actually the reason i hadn't looked into migen earlier - all the info on it was on a corportation's page14:54
robtaylorIf you have an interest in the whys and wherefores of open source govornance, I'd reccomend Jono Bacon's book14:55
ysionneauok :o14:58
robtaylorysionneau: i'm actally kinda saddened, as I'd like to consider using migen, but it'd be too big a risk commercially14:58
ysionneauactually, the project didn't change overnight when the main contributor incorporated14:59
ysionneauthe source code is still the same14:59
ysionneauwith same license14:59
ysionneauon the same github repo14:59
robtaylorcode and license aren't govornance14:59
ysionneauare you referring to the directions taken by a project?14:59
robtaylorIf i do anyting to promote it, I'd be paying to promote another compant14:59
robtaylorwhich is then a commercial linkage15:00
ysionneauwhat about 1-men companies? are they still companies?15:00
ysionneaulike free lancers and such15:00
ysionneauanyone is a company basically ... or could become one in 1 week15:02
robtaylorif you are passing ownership to that company and that company is espressing controlling rights on the work, yep15:04
wallentowhat exactly is the problem with promoting another companies free and open source product?15:04
robtaylorits more if I'm building something on top of it15:05
robtaylorso less of an issue for, say, a core15:05
robtaylorthan the language you're using (effectively)15:05
robtaylorits not a problem if there's a clear govornance model15:06
robtaylorbut in this case there isn't15:06
ysionneaumaybe you should talk about it to sb015:06
wallentookay, got it15:06
robtaylor- its about knowing the rules of the game - if the rules aren't clear then I need to worry about that companies actions15:06
robtaylorysionneau: happy to do so, I've got quite some experience in this area ;)15:07
robtaylor(done it right and wrong...)15:07
sb0robtaylor, what is your question about "govornance" (sic)?15:10
robtaylorsb0: its not a question, more an observation15:10
robtaylorsb0: there isn't a clearly defined relationship between migen/misoc and m-labs15:11
sb0oh, yawn, red tape ...15:12
robtaylorsb0: I'm creating a startup, and currently feel I can't utilise migen as this isn't defined15:12
sb0so what is the risk exactly?15:13
robtaylorsb0: i can't trust m-labs, and m-labs (appear to) hold all control15:13
robtaylor(i can't trust m-labs as I'm in no contractual relationship with them, not because they are untrustable)15:14
sb0how is that different from, say, linux or worse, windows (if you're using that)?15:14
robtaylorlinux is not controlled by one company15:14
robtaylorwindows does indeed have exactly that problem, which is why folk stopped using it.. (at least in my world)15:14
sb0what about the linux foundation? is that not a company?15:15
robtaylorwell, not quite, you did have a contractual relationship with MS, and could ask for more15:15
robtaylorsb0: well, its a not for profit, but yes, it has a clear governance relationship with linux15:15
wallentoI think governance models are rare in the open source hardware and EDA world15:16
robtayloryep, its young15:16
robtayloryou haven't had enpough people and companies around to hit the problems yet15:16
wallentowhich is not a problem of age (its not that young actually) but of the structure, I think15:17
robtaylortrue, its not that young, but the size of the overall community is small15:17
wallentoyes, so its hard to find governed projects15:18
robtayloryeah, you don't need it when gthings are small, you have similarly minded folk working towards common goals15:18
robtaylorand mostly its hobbyist and single-man companies providing services15:19
robtaylor(or small product companies)15:19
sb0also, all this red tape is boring15:19
wallentosb0: its different when stuff grows15:19
sb0plus, linux has its problems too. didn't Sarah Sharp complain about it quite loudly, recently?15:20
robtaylorsb0: indeed, and actually thats becasue Linux's governance model is pretty shoddy15:20
robtaylorits basically 'what Linus says'15:20
robtaylorbetter examples abound elsewhere15:20
robtaylorsb0: so is m-labs you?15:21
sb0I founded it, yes15:21
robtaylorsb0: ownership wise?15:22
robtaylorsorry, public channel15:22
sb0yeah, I don't have external investors15:23
juliusb_robtaylor: when it's a one-man-band backing something that is all open source licensed and publically available stuff, I don't see the big deal; a formal governance about the development of that thing isn't necessary. Eg. if it goes the wrong way, you fork and have your own thing. No biggie. If it's got commits from more than half a dozen places, some of which are commerical, fine, you might need it, but before then (or somewhere around then) it doesn't matter right?17:29
juliusb_I would argue it's a bit rash to avoid all projects which might be done by a few men who also have a commerical entity17:32
juliusb_what about cocotb? Going to avoid that too?17:32
juliusb_it's likely once you17:33
juliusb_it's likely once you get big enough, you'll need something formal, but even then it's not obvious; are not there loads of projects where you might have a couple commerical contributors plus a community, and it's all worked out via a reasonably informal system of perhaps one man in charge, or a leadership council? What changes if you codeify that?17:34
juliusb_an interesting area, anyway, and hopefully something the open source hardware area will need to sort out one day ;)17:38
robtaylorjuliusb_: its more that it lives within a commercial entity at the moment17:54
robtaylorjuliusb_: i'd raise the same concerns with cocotb :)17:54
robtaylorjuliusb_: but indeed, at this early point one can go have conversations with the company owners if there are issues. Its good to be aware that if we're sucessful that causes problems (as we had with opencores and the toolchain)17:56
poke53281olofk: No, with a tex port I can't offer a network.22:29
--- Log closed Wed Oct 28 00:00:45 2015

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