| glowplug | We all have an inner Stallman. 8) | 00:23 |
|---|---|---|
| GentlemanEnginee | Quite. | 00:24 |
| glowplug | I'm not quite sure about the working on the first try thing. That is even more optimistic than me. And I am *very* optimistic. | 00:25 |
| GentlemanEnginee | I had not so observed... | 00:25 |
| GentlemanEnginee | A further examination of the Memory Controller in the Milkymist Project appears to indicate that, documentation notwithstanding, it is designed for the Spartan 6. | 00:27 |
| GentlemanEnginee | It is using the primatives: IDDR, ODDR, & IDELAY. | 00:30 |
| GentlemanEnginee | I am uncertain if Altera's offerings have similar primatives available. | 00:30 |
| glowplug | So it's using interfaces that only exist in Spartan-6 FPGA's? | 00:30 |
| GentlemanEnginee | I do not know if these are only for the Spartan 6. The documentation indicates it is only for the Virtex 4. | 00:31 |
| glowplug | Interesting. | 00:31 |
| GentlemanEnginee | Perhaps someone with more experience on a wider subset of FPGAs could shed some light upon this... | 00:32 |
| glowplug | Hopefully I can design a board that will work with DDR at all. :/ | 00:34 |
| GentlemanEnginee | I would think that this could be something that others are not offering. | 00:35 |
| GentlemanEnginee | At least not at that price point. | 00:36 |
| glowplug | I dont know of any boards with DDR. So I think it has some potential. =) | 01:10 |
| GentlemanEnginee | Of course, there could be a reason for it. | 01:10 |
| glowplug | Hopefully not. =) | 01:12 |
| GentlemanEnginee | I think it is worth the old college try... | 01:15 |
| GentlemanEnginee | Hello simoncook. | 01:27 |
| GentlemanEnginee | Hello rolloTomasi. | 05:46 |
| stekern | bah... this crap works perfectly in the simulations... and I'm simulating the exact soc that I load to the atlys board | 06:08 |
| stekern | HAHA, just when I said that, I manage to bring out something that didn't work ;) | 06:09 |
| stekern | more precisely, running dhry | 06:10 |
| GentlemanEnginee | I had a circuit simulation once that would run on one machine, and not another. | 06:26 |
| GentlemanEnginee | Variety is the SPICE of life, after all. | 06:34 |
| stekern | heh | 06:44 |
| stekern | seems like that was an simulation issue, the program was larger than the amount of data that is loaded into DDR2 | 09:52 |
| stekern | I just stumbled on a very interesting thread regarding open hardware: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=119935499328116&w=2 | 10:33 |
| stekern | where Richard Stallman is participating, basically saying that Verilog/VHDL should be considered as software | 10:34 |
| stekern | jeremybennett: have you seen that? | 10:34 |
| stekern | it is 5 years old after all ;) | 10:42 |
| jeremybennett | I asked him about OS HW at GNU Cauldron last year. He doesn't get it - he just answered about software. As a counter-point, take a look at: http://www.embecosm.com/2013/03/08/a-license-to-build/ | 11:09 |
| jeremybennett | BTW Andrew Katz talk to OSHUG is on YouTube on the Embecosm channel. | 11:12 |
| juliusb | stekern: what bug are you tracking? something in the cappuccino on the board? | 12:29 |
| juliusb | maybe I read that post by Stallman incorrectly (he's replying, right?) but he seems to understand things pretty well and I agree with his analysis | 12:31 |
| --- Log closed Mon Mar 18 13:18:00 2013 | ||
| --- Log opened Mon Mar 18 13:18:16 2013 | ||
| -!- Irssi: #openrisc: Total of 27 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 27 normal] | 13:18 | |
| -!- Irssi: Join to #openrisc was synced in 20 secs | 13:18 | |
| stekern | jeremybennett: I'll read that | 13:19 |
| stekern | juliusb: yeah, I'm investigating why cappuccino doesn't seem to work _at_all_ on the atlys board, not even the most simple software will print anything on the terminal | 13:21 |
| stekern | it seems like it goes into 0x200 when attaching gdb | 13:22 |
| stekern | all simulations so far works perfectly, now I'm running with the SPI loading bootrom | 13:23 |
| stekern | jeremybennett: but what's interesting is his definition of software (or at least definition of software that should be free), it only applies to devices where the user 'typically' would change what's programmed | 13:25 |
| stekern | i.e. it doesn't matter if it's written in C, verilog, VHDL, basic, whatever. If it's burnt into a ROM, it's not "software". | 13:37 |
| stekern | then it's a "circuit" | 13:37 |
| juliusb | mmm, RTL simulation, though - try gatelevel | 13:41 |
| juliusb | (gatelevel sucks :-/) | 13:41 |
| stekern | I am trying to avoid that ;) | 13:42 |
| stekern | I rather debug on HW than doing gatelevel | 13:42 |
| juliusb | haha | 13:42 |
| juliusb | everyone does | 13:42 |
| juliusb | but you get limited visibility | 13:42 |
| juliusb | one option is to gatelevel just the mor1kx and plumb that in | 13:42 |
| juliusb | or gatelevel just a part of it | 13:42 |
| juliusb | check synthesis logs or warnings | 13:43 |
| juliusb | for | 13:43 |
| stekern | the visibility in signaltap is actually pretty good, unfortunately everything works fine on the de0-nano :/ | 13:43 |
| stekern | but I have my homebrewn logger, that's essentially a signaltap light | 13:44 |
| stekern | just have to dust it off, and this might be a good oppurtunity to write a nice dump-to-vcd converter for it | 13:45 |
| juliusb | :) | 13:53 |
| stekern | but it has to be something simple and stupid, like some load getting stuck or something like that | 13:55 |
| juliusb | ya | 13:55 |
| juliusb | :-/ | 13:55 |
| juliusb | ah so it's something to do with the memory subsystem you think? | 13:55 |
| stekern | I have no idea what it is at this point, but 0x200 sounds like databusish | 13:56 |
| stekern | that's the only indicator from the hw that I have at this point | 13:57 |
| stekern | or at least busish ;) | 14:03 |
| stekern | I keep forgetting that ibus can cause bus error exception | 14:03 |
| jeremybennett | stekern: That's the problem - he only deals with "programmable" stuff. Yet I can have a "free" design for a car, in the sense that anyone can take the plans and build their own or a variant. | 14:06 |
| jeremybennett | And RepRap is free, but not covered by Stallman's concept. | 14:06 |
| stekern | oh, I completely agree | 14:06 |
| stekern | I'm mostly interested in licensing of "source code" though, and we have had discussions that gpl for example isn't suitable for VHDL/Verilog designs, but the real issue is what kind of end device the compiled source code goes into | 14:08 |
| juliusb | I'm a bit lost after the "normal to install different software" thing, though. I'm not sure what my view is on that. Just because it's not normal to install software on it doesn't mean that a) I shouldn't be able to and b) anything like that which uses open source source shouldn't be exempt from any open source license-type effects of making them release the source code | 14:54 |
| juliusb | RTL design which has gone into an ASIC is exactly the "might as well be circuits" thing. What does he mean by that? That it doesn't matter because he can't then change it (the bit of the chip the RTL affected?) | 14:55 |
| stekern | juliusb: yeah, that's exactly my view too | 14:58 |
| stekern | what I'm interested in is protecting the source, not what is done with it after it is compiled | 15:01 |
| stekern | perhaps that's why I'm not a huge fan of gplv3 | 15:01 |
| juliusb | I'm not sure why anyone would pay attention to RMS on these matters anyway. The GNU guys haven't ever really focussed on hardware before. | 15:02 |
| juliusb | well, hardware designs, be they schematics and the like | 15:03 |
| juliusb | although, I'm not an expert on the matter, so I could be wrong, but whatever, we see the main efforts for a license in this area coming from people who have, or at least used to have, very little to do with the software open source people like GNU, FSF, and of course I'm talking about the Tuscon guys, the CERN guys (they now talk a lot to the FSF guys I believe), the SolderPad license which was put togeher by Andrew Bac | 15:08 |
| juliusb | myself, as well, who did a find/replace on the MPL :) | 15:09 |
| stekern | your previous sentence was cut off at "Andrew Bac" | 15:13 |
| juliusb | ah | 15:15 |
| juliusb | wasn't much more | 15:15 |
| juliusb | ....the SolderPad license which was put togeher by Andrew Back who does OSHUG in London | 15:15 |
| juliusb | but my point is the existing open source institutions seem to be very software-centric (who can blame, them, it's what they were set up to look at), so you can't be surprised that someone like Stallman doesn't understand all of the aspects of hardware design | 15:21 |
| juliusb | He doesn't speak for all, though, obviously. The guys from GNU and FSFE I meet at things like FSCONS are very encouraging regarding extending the work towards software freedom to hardware | 15:22 |
| juliusb | ... but it's still a relatively nascent idea/movement/effort so there's no widespread understanding of what the goal is, I think | 15:23 |
| ams | it is also a bit of "this is my forte"; stallman is a software dude, that is what he does and understands best. someone else, within the hardware community would be a better leader for freeing hardware. | 15:24 |
| ams | (oh yeah, i hate software today) | 15:26 |
| ams | juliusb: beer? | 15:28 |
| juliusb | his view is still valuable, I agree with a bit of his analysis, but I think, as you say, it's not his forte, so we probably shouldn't be too concerned if his view is a little off | 15:30 |
| juliusb | ams: certainly! I met up with a mate yesterday with the intentino of drinking a lot of craft beer but we got stuck in London's oldest wine bar for several hours | 15:30 |
| juliusb | I had the obligatory guiness earlier in the day, but no craft beer unfortunately, so I have a defecit of it in my life at present | 15:30 |
| ams | nice | 15:32 |
| ams | i was mostly removing rust from a bicycle i'm fixing up for my gf | 15:33 |
| juliusb | :) | 15:40 |
| juliusb | sounds like you could do with some craft beer, too | 15:40 |
| juliusb | why do you hate software today, btw? | 15:40 |
| ams | juliusb: the web | 15:52 |
| ams | juliusb: trying to write one of those fancy pancy web "applications" ... failing horribly. | 15:57 |
| juliusb | I don't even know what one of those things are. Way too high up the stack... | 16:35 |
| glowplug | It seems to me that a license that properly defends rights for any "idea" which is what we defend in patent law would work equally well for music, playing music (physical representation of an idea of music), high level software, RTL, or written RTL (physical representation of verilog in a circuit). | 17:30 |
| glowplug | Drawing a line between an idea and an ideas physical manifestation doesn't seem necessary. | 17:31 |
| glowplug | If I can sue for playing Free Bird on my guitar in public (possible) then I can sue for creating a circuit based based on a design I saw when I worked at Intel. If the song or design are under a free license that protects any ideas then they should defend both cases equally. | 17:33 |
| glowplug | It was my understanding that Patents were the major issue however, not copyright. | 17:35 |
| glowplug | I do like the SolderPad license but it seems that they just added the word "object" to the Apache license. O_O | 17:40 |
| stekern | hmm, interesting, disabling caches and all seems to be hunky-dory | 21:26 |
| stekern | I assume that disabling icache is enough, since the commit that appears to be guilty only touches that | 21:28 |
| stekern | hmm, no, then a bus error occurs | 21:48 |
| stekern | ..on the ethernet mac wb address, and I have disabled the ethernet mac, so that's all normal | 21:50 |
| stekern | wonder why that didn't happen when dcache was disabled though.. | 21:51 |
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